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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:20 pm 
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I was just admiring my fall/winter garden of mustard greens, turnips, collards, radishes, and of course cover crops of crimson clover mixed with oats and wheat from whole grain seed cattle/horse feeds that I used for this winter's no-till beds. I just had my soil formally tested last month, and most of my beds on my 3 acre farm have a native soil pH near 6.5 to 6.8 now.

I started a few new no-till beds by just putting 1-2" of fresh horse manure/sawdust on top of lawn soil, then a layer of 2 sheets of newspapers, then 2-3" of good rich horse manure/sawdust/leaves based compost on top of that. Since this compost has a pH ranging from 5.8 to 6.9, I sprinkled a hand full of dolomitic limestone on each little compost mound in the beds. Then I sprinkled my seeds of mustard greens, or collards, etc. on top of that. Then I watered it all it with a diluted fishy aerated compost tea over all the layers of this no-till bed. The total area of all these new beds are about 3' by 20' in size.

I read recently from a couple articles in several "Acres USA" magazine issues, as well as the books "The Biological Farmer" and "Eco-Farm", how some sustainable farmers are using liming products or other natural or mineral calcium sources, even in near neutral native pH soils, just for the extra calcium and/or magnesium benefits, needed for making other micronutrients more available in soils, plus it's effect on increasing photosynthesis in the crops.

Since both good aerobic compost and good fungal ACT, have a balancing and buffering effect via microbes on local soil pH near the rhizosphere, I think a slight sprinkle of limestone is not a bad idea, for use in planting holes, in no-till beds, for heavy feeders like corn or melons, even in pH balanced soils.

Is this a correct assumption?



Also on the subject of liming. I'm gotten conflicting and varying advice of the use of liming agents in soils from non-organic county extension agents and farmers.
Some say that it takes 1-2 months for powdered or pulverized dolomitic limestone to chemical react in soil. Since I'm a no-till gardener, I disagree with that timing for my soil conditions.

Since compost adds humus, and adds billions of aerobic microbes to the soil, humus acts like a soil magnet to local soluble nutrients near the rhizosphere for crops. Plus aerobic microbial activity can also have a local effect on soil pH, as well as the increase availability of Ca and Mg from dolomitic limestone in the rhizosphere.

I believe because I'm using tons of compost on my no-till beds on my farm, plus frequently drenching most of these beds with rich ACT recipes, the timing of the chemical reactions of limestone in the soil is greatly increased. I'm thinking about 1-2 weeks at least, not 1-2 months as the experts suggest.

What do you think?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:37 pm 
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I know most of you Texas farmers have native alkaline soil. However, here in most of Alabama we have native hard, red, acidic clay.

Do you think my liming methods as mentioned make sense?

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 Post subject: My Humble Opinion
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:00 am 
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So far as I can tell, you are on the mark. The high activity in the soil due to aerated compost teas should have the effect of breaking down the limestone to release the calcium & magnesium more quickly. You might add an application of molasses to the mix and see if you can speed it up even more.

The only other way I have heard of to add calcium is to use laying hen manure or eggshells to the compost. Other than that, it seems you are probably on the right track.

I plan to run this past my chemistry teacher sister tomorrow when she's here for Turkey day. I'll get back to you if she has anything to add.

Kathe :D


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 8:17 am 
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Thanks Kathe!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:02 am 
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Captain,

I've heard that using saw dust creates some porblems as it takes so much energy to break it down. And never use saw dust from pressure treated lumber. I'm sure you are aware of toxins in pressure treated lumber, but just wanted to mention it here for others.

In West Texas they are using cotton husk and cotton lint, directly onto the soil, from some of the local mills with very good results. I think that artical was posted here somewhere. Maybe Ms Kitchen remembers.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 8:41 pm 
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All the tons of compost that I make and sell contains about 75% horse manure/sawdust, that I collect weekly from a local equine clinic. The rest is a combination of grass clippings, leaves, food scraps, and occasional weekly fish scraps that I collect from the local seafood market.

I personally enjoy using rotten sawdust in my composting or mulching. It's always premixed with high nitrogen horse manure, or soaked from my aerated compost tea recipes. Also all the sawdust bedding used at equine clinics is 100% untreated safe sawdust, usually pine.

Rotten wood products are actually cheaper and better than gypsum in heavy clay soils. Wood based compost is also rich in calcium and potassium.

Only fresh woody products are acidic, or can produce a temporary nitrogen deficiency near the rhizosphere of crops, if premixed in the soil, instead of just used as an organic mulch.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:20 am 
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I'm reading a book about growing good pasture for livestock. The author talks about using lime and gypsum every year even in Texas (where there is not much rain) on alkaline soils. He says the soil surface becomes acidic and must be treated unless the rain mixes the chemistry up. That's the first I've ever seen anything about that.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 1:52 pm 
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Even though most of my no-till beds have a current soil pH around 6.4 to 6.8, I'm thinking of sprinkling some corn meal (extra phosphorus source), a little sulfur, and a little limestone (extra calcium source) around my seed potato crops in February, in order to fight soil diseases and to increase fruiting for harvest. That would be almost like adding calcium sulfate (gypsum) to the soil.

I'm thinking about doing a similar thing to help my tomatoes next year too.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 9:14 pm 
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Captain,
Do you think it would be a good idea to spray compost tea on each layer, of the compost as I turn it, or spray the tea on top of the heap after all layers are built and turning is complete. I have, in the past, just added it to the top and let it filter down. My compost bins are 4 foot square [4X4X4].

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:34 am 
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I had a personal phone conversation with the great master composter/author Malcolm Beck the other day. He suggests using about a 2-3 times more browns than greens, then do rare or few total pile turning only for mixing purposes, but using maximum constant aeration by bin or windrow design if possible, then using either a tea made from molasses or any sugary product like flat soda drinks, etc., as an aerobic microbial activator. He claims it works faster, and will be get piles or windrows hotter faster (170+ degrees F) than using my special aerated tea recipes as activators.

Mr. Beck says frequent turning will drastically breed aerobic bacteria in a pile to help speed up decomposition of the green materials, but only by infrequent movements and constant 24 hour aeration can you greatly breed and speed up the decomposition work of aerobic fungi to break down tough cellulose and lignin in browns like the untreated pine sawdust in my horse manure bedding mixture that I collect from the local equine clinic.

Mr. Beck believes the best compost in the world should mimic the forest's floor version of decomposition (more plant waste than animal waste, more browns than greens), and have a wide variety of species of aerobic microbes living in it, not just aerobic bacteria.

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Last edited by CaptainCompostAL on Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:45 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:39 am 
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Captain,
Thanks for the reply. I will follow your directions.

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